No Strings Attached

Comments

23 Responses to “When did we start legislating Personal Responsibility?”

1. David Hunt says:

   March 11, 2004 at 2:27 pm

   Howdy, Ms. David. Glad to see that you’ve got your own blog now. So far, I agree with what I’ve read. Your approach to parenting is the one that I (admittedly a single guy with no kids) think best as well. Thinking back, I remember that all through high school, I too knew pretty much exactly where The Line was with what my parents expected of me, even though I can’t recall much explicit talk about what limits were. I knew that when I was out with friends, I was expected home by midnight, but they never actually told me that. I just knew. I wasn’t told to tell them where I was going, but I knew to tell them. I suppose that came from their asking me when I was younger, though.

   There must be a thousand examples of how my parents went the Extra Mile for me that I didn’t take notice of as a callous youth. Still, reading what you’ve written, it reminds me how lucky I was to have parents who took an interest in what I was doing.

   Glad that you’re here, Ms. David.

2. jeff says:

   March 11, 2004 at 3:09 pm

   Nice post Kath. Love to hear of other parents that take responsibility for what their own kids see and do. My wife and myself used to work in the school system, and it was always such a dissappointment to see parents that thought that EVERYTHING that a child was to learn was going to be taught at school. From basic manners to Calculus. We do the same stuff that you do with your “little ‘uns,” limits are placed and enforced and expectations are expressed.

   jeff

3. Jonathan says:

   March 11, 2004 at 3:22 pm

   I quite agree. My three-year-old will, when older, be able to handle such influences, because she’ll know what her mother and I expect of her. (I also suspect her favorite DVDs will help influence her – she’s heavily into VeggieTales and, oddly enough, the A&E production of Jane Austen’s “Pride and Prejudice”.)

4. EClark1849 says:

   March 11, 2004 at 4:12 pm

   With all due respect Kathleen, you’re in the minority.

   And frankly, I knew the fast food industry was in trouble when the tobacco industry started losing cases. And so is the gun industry, and eventually even the alcohol industry.

5. Rob says:

   March 11, 2004 at 4:28 pm

   Here here.

   My parents(well, mainly my mom) were very aware of what I watched as a child, and in fact, if asked, can probably name half or more of the shows, starting with Mr. Rodgers and Sesame St. through He-Man/Transformers/Disney Zorro till about the time I started to watch ST:TNG and B5.(Fun fact: My dad can still hum the He-Man toon. That should scare me, but it doesnt.)

   Did they know everything about what I watched as a teen? nope. But even then, mom, who was no Scifi fan at all, still was a bit aware of what I watched and even sat through A New Hope with me.

   I plan to do the same with my kids, at least sitting in with them and watching together at least one of the shows they watch, and curtailing anything I dont think is appropiate at whatever age their at.

6. Mitch says:

   March 11, 2004 at 4:54 pm

   I may be mistaken but I think we decided to start legislating personal responsibility when it became ok to file a law suit over hot coffee. Which brings me to an old saying… “Don’t cry over spilled milk.” I guess the spirit of this statement hasn’t translated well throught the years. Since then it just seems that, instead of people taking care of their lives, they just sue the next supplier in line.

   Now I have no kids of my own, either, so I may be just talking out of my shiney hiney here, but I have always felt that if we were to treat kids as people instead of walking/talking trophies, maturity meters, or any type of objectification then they might come out of childhood a little better off. I’m not pointing at anyone here, but I have seen it all too often.

   I also think that kids watch adults more than we realize and learn some of the behaviors we exhibit when we think we’re ‘in the clear.’

   Salutations,

   Mitch

7. vocalyz says:

   March 11, 2004 at 5:28 pm

   Congrats on the new blog, Kathleen. I agree with you 100%. Especially, as a former teacher who was amazed at the amount of time I had to spend “parenting” students. Too many parents didn’t feel there should be consequences at home for their kids’ actions at school. If the kid acts up at school, it MUST be the faculty and staff at fault. It seems the parents didn’t feel responsible for teaching their kids how to act properly at school, it’s the school’s responsibility to CONTROL the students behavior! Hah! Not one student in any school I taught or visited cared about the consequences of their choices because those consequences ended once they stepped off school property.
   Those same kids also seemed to believe that it’s ALWAYS someone else’s fault when their personal choices did not result in what they wanted. You may not know this, but many students manipulate the system to get what they want. They aren’t happy, so they cry foul and the parents take formal action.
   Ok, end of rant. Fortunately, these kids and their parents ARE in the minority–but they DO stick out in your memory and work day.
   Happy Thursday everyone!
   Daniel

8. Bill Mulligan says:

   March 11, 2004 at 5:42 pm

   Kathleen, you are absolutely correct but I fear it’s too late to get this particular genie back into the bottle. We let folks sue the tobacco companies because, hëll, who likes tobacco companies? But it’s just as valid to sue McDonalds and Famous Amos Cookies and pretty much anyone else who isn’t marketing tofuburgers (though their day will come).

   It kills me that I can’t talk any of the local mining operations to allow me to go on their property and look for fossils and other minerals I could use in class but I understand their reasoning–it benefits them not at all and they have no way of knowing that if I accidentally stab myself in the hand with my pickaxe, on account of my being, in legalese, a “dûmbášš”, I won’t sue them for allowing my dûmbášš self on their land.

   But at least I know that some of the world’s stupidest people are getting some money from all this, which makes it all so much better.

9. Elie says:

   March 11, 2004 at 9:10 pm

   Hi, just checking your blog out and I really like it.

   I agree with you and vocalyz. As a former teacher myself (got out of it for reasons including those mentioned by vocalyz and a few others), accountability is something not many parents want to be held to these days. Most say they do, but they’ll come up with many, MANY excuses why they shouldn’t be for any one specific action.

   On a similar note, I remember virtually every field trip I took either with a class, or with the band had us stopping at a McDonalds or other fast food chain to catch a meal. I cannot remember more than a single instance where we were taken to somewhere that had even a remote chance of promoting healthy eating.

   When I was leading field trips as a teacher, I remember once trying to take my students to a Subway. I remember both the students and a couple of the parent/chaperones objected because Subway “takes too long” and “McDonalds is faster.”

   Elie

10. Chris says:

    March 11, 2004 at 9:21 pm

    Kath,

    Always appreciated your comments on Peter’s blog, and glad that you now have one of your own. I totally agree with what you say, but people seem not to take responsibility for their own actions anymore. Maybe it’s because I grew up in a household where I was close with my parents, but they told me what to do and 99% of the time I did it. And when I didn’t they were usually right. Now I don’t have anywhere near as much experience to draw on as a lot of you (because I’m only 20) but I do have a clear-cut sense of right and wrong, and I think most people have learned how to ignore that, which is a sad state, but one we have to deal with and attempt to address.

    Chris

11. Andrew says:

    March 11, 2004 at 9:52 pm

    Hi Kathleen, nice to see that you have a blog!

    I really enjoyed reading your post on the fast food industry and I’m personally of two minds about the issue.

    On the one hand I completely agree with everything you said about people taking responsibility for themselves and their children/families. If everyone in North America started doing this the world would quickly become a much better, happier place.

    At the same time, I’m horrified by the idea that the U.S. Congress (or any other government) would be so reckless as to grant any industry blanket immunity from the courts. I don’t think a fast food chain should be sued because someone chooses to eat there everyday and gains weight, but I do think if it can be proven that a chain deliberately engages in practices which are unhealthy for consumers for the sake of earning a profit they are and should be liable.

    The problem is that the fast food industry has been following many of the best practices of the tobacco industry (albeit with a marginally healthier product) for years. They’ve deliberately added MSG to food because it’s been proven (like caffeine) to be an addictive substance. They’ve promoted chicken products as healthy alternatives to beef, but then cook it in massive amounts of beef fat without properly informing customers.

    I think it’s hypocritical of the fast food chains to attempt to get protection from the courts when they’ve relentlessly and shamelessly used litigation to silence critics and crush union organizing attempts at every opportunity is shameful.

    Even worse, McDonalds – a massive producer of environmental waste as well as unhealthy food – has made it’s name and mascot synonymous with children!

    So that’s why I think the industry is scared and have their boys in Washington trying to get Congress to protect them. They know this is coming and they know they’re going to be in trouble when they’re publicly outted, just like the tobacco industry has been.

    That’s my two cents on the issue anyways. Now excuse me while I go order some pizza…

12. Tim Lynch says:

    March 12, 2004 at 8:55 am

    As a parent-to-be and a teacher, let me just chime in here with a “right on.” As a teacher, I’m occasionally appalled by what the parents are willing (or even eager) to abdicate responsibility for — glad to hear you’re not in that … er … select group.

    As for the bill itself … while I’m not sure the bill was entirely necessary given that courts have been rejecting these lawsuits right and left, I certainly agree with the principle behind it: suing McDonald’s for obesity is not a claim I can see anyone making stick unless McDonald’s execs have been tying people to chairs and force-feeding them.

    I do disagree, though, that the tobacco lawsuits are thus equally wrong. Nobody is claiming that McDonald’s hamburgers are physically addictive; I think most of the basis behind the tobacco suits is that nicotine **is** addictive and that execs knowingly lied about that.

    That, to me, makes the tobacco suits valid. Your mileage may, of course, vary.

    (“Try heroin! It’s got no carbs!”)

    TWL

13. EClark1849 says:

    March 12, 2004 at 7:01 pm

    I do disagree, though, that the tobacco lawsuits are thus equally wrong. Nobody is claiming that McDonald’s hamburgers are physically addictive; I think most of the basis behind the tobacco suits is that nicotine **is** addictive and that execs knowingly lied about that.

    That, to me, makes the tobacco suits valid. Your mileage may, of course, vary.

    Tim:

    You must be PAD’s twin brother, or alter ego, because you and I are starting to disagree almost as much.

    I just don’t see the tobacco industry as culpable as much as you seem to. Note that I said AS CULPABLE, which means that I don’t disregard that they had a large share of the blame. But look, I’m 46 years old and I’ve known since I was five that smoking is bad for your health. And I’m from NC, a tobacco state. And ever since I learned to read, I’ve known about the warnings on the packs of cigarettes.

    I’ve smoked a total of one half cigarette in my entire life, and that was due to an attempt to fit in with my peers at school, not tobacco advertising.

    And you know, even if you DO mostly blame the tobacco industry for cigarette related illnesses, you’ll notice that the government STILL lets them legally sell a drug which has been PROVEN dangerous to your health. It’s funny. You can find judges that will order legislatures to allow gay marriages, but no one that will order them to make selling a harmful drug like cigarettes illegal.

    And I don’t even want to start on all the health related problems that are brought about by the alcohol industry. At least no one ever took out an entire freeway section because they were smoking a cigarette.

14. Tim Lynch says:

    March 12, 2004 at 9:30 pm

    I’m honestly not entirely sure exactly how much blame I think the tobacco industry does deserve — given that I’ve smoked half a cigarette less than you over my lifetime and that I live in a state that’s not exactly supporting the practice or the industry, it’s not a topic that hits my radar all THAT much.

    I think the addiction element (and perhaps more dámņìņg, the obvious lies about same) adds enough culpability to make a suit possible. Not a slam-dunk by any means, but enough to keep a judge or jury from dismissing it out of hand as laughable.

    As for how the government supports the industry (and the alcohol industry, as you mention) … we may actually be in agreement there. I’m certainly not supporting all the subsidies (governmental or otherwise) that prop those industries up.

    (And I can rule out being PAD’s alter ego, as we’ve been sighted in the same room at the same time. Unless there’s that whole super-speed thing. Or clones. Something like that.)

    TWL

15. Toby says:

    March 13, 2004 at 12:55 am

    Nice blog, Mrs. David.

    I’m a new parent (of a 6 month old), and I just can’t understand the mentality of some other parents I have watched. It’s as if they have no interest in their child’s life, and want someone else to raise it. They are afraid to discipline them. I don’t know how many kids I’ve seen running around, screaming, throwing tantrums because mommy or daddy dared to say no. I never did that, because if I did, I’d get “the look”. You know, the one that means you’re going to get clubbed upside the head, have all your toys taken away and you won’t see the light of day for weeks.

    I think many kids lack discipline today. I never ate a snack, went out to play or turned on the tv without first asking one of my parents. That’s just the way it was. They knew where I was and what I was doing from the start.

    As far as lawsuits concerning smoking or obesity and whatnot, I think we should instead overhaul the healthcare system (I know, I know). If you smoke, or are obese and you have medical complications resulting from such, it shouldn’t be covered (essentially, why should you pay with your taxes and whatnot for my behaviors that are known to be destructive?). I don’t know if it’s just a NH thing or what, but my wife and I had to sign a waiver for our car insurance stating that we always wear our seatbelts. IF we didn’t sign it, they wouldn’t do business with us. If we get into an accident and it turns out we weren’t wearing our seat belts, they won’t cover us. I like that. Our stupidity would become our burden and our responsibilty.

    Alright, I’ll shut up, I’m way too tired anywho.

    Monkeys.

16. Mitch says:

    March 13, 2004 at 12:21 pm

    Ok, so as I’ve stated above, I think children ought to be treated like people with all of the responsibility and consequences associated therein. As a result of what I have seen personally I often wonder if we should institute the “License to Parent” plan. Mind you, I’ve seen some pretty bad things and I am still conflicted as to whether that idea should be considered. For example, I considered it when I saw a lady having what I can only describe a a coniption while holding her 2 or 3 year-old. She appeared to be having a screaming contest with her husband in a parking lot and when she turned to yell at him some more the child head hit the side of the truck. It wasn’t hard by any means, but it was enough to start the kid crying. She proceeded to tell the kid (loudly) to shut the @&#$ up. This is when I consider licensing.

    As to the analogy of fast food and tobacco It is my beleif that bringing charges against either is wrong. Heres why. We eat what we want and are, therefore, responsible. Same with smoking, drinking, sex partners, etcetra.

    More on smoking:
    I smoke. What ever happens is my fault. Further, I question some of the research on smoking tobacco. Primarily because just about everyone is exposed to so many other… fumes I guess would be the best word. Automobile exhaust, cooking with various oils and greases, air fresheners, burning candles, industrial exhaust just to name a few. Everyone has been exposed these at one time or another.

    I considered including farts in that list because, let’s face it, some of them have a degree of toxicity that could make one beleive that the Devil himself is present (That was just a joke for the ‘irony impared’, and I wanted to be the first to work it in).

    I’m not suggesting that smoking tobacco is blameless. I’m suggesting that there is a high probability that there are many contributing factors. Especially in light of the EPA report on second-hand smoke. The bulk of that report which contains the hard data indicates that there is a less than two percent chance of health risk associated with second-hand smoke yet the summary at the end would lead one to beleive that the risk is very much higher. It just makes me wonder which line of BS to put some faith in.

    And now onto my point:
    Obeisity is caused by many factors. Primarily dietary and excercise habits. So-called “smoking-related illness” COULD also be caused by a variety of factors as well. Hëll, even sunlight can contribute to skin cancer. Considering the possibilities has led me to the conclusion that both issues are about personal responsibility and that anyone filing a law suit is just out for the money.

    Personal note:
    I don’t throw butts out the car window, blow smoke in anyones face, light-up outside of designated areas, or continue to linger about those who (politely) ask for some distance . I try to be personally responsible about my habit. If someone is being ‘snotty’, howerever, I have been known to return the favor. I think of it as teaching them to be personally responsible for exhibiting a holier-than-thou attitude and general rudeness.

    Standard closing:

    Salutations,

    Mitch

17. vocalyz says:

    March 13, 2004 at 3:20 pm

    The reason I hold the tobacco industry responsible, IN PART, is the fact that they took measures to make their products AS ADDICTIVE AS POSSIBLE, and took measures to make sure the public was AS UNAWARE AS POSSIBLE. These are facts supported by the various memos and documents discovered in the tobacco companies’ files. I believe there is a website that lists both the empirical facts and the conjecture (www.thetruth.com).

    Beyond that, hëll yes I blame the consumers themselves. Anyone who continued to smoke or began smoking once the facts were made public is, IMO, completely responsible for his or her behavior. I feel the same about any drug or alcohol user who wasn’t literally forced to sample such products. I also hold parents to blame for creating a new generation of smokers and users.

    Here’s an interesting anecdote: When I asked two neighbors–early-twenty-something brothers–if they realized that smoking would likely lead to an early death they replied, and I quote, “We know. But it’s a family tradition.” I think one could make a strong case that their parents are partially to blame.

    Thoughts?
    Daniel

18. Mitch says:

    March 13, 2004 at 7:08 pm

    vocalyz wrote:

    “Here’s an interesting anecdote: When I asked two neighbors–early-twenty-something brothers–if they realized that smoking would likely lead to an early death they replied, and I quote, “We know. But it’s a family tradition.” I think one could make a strong case that their parents are partially to blame.

    Thoughts?”

    I don’t know what’s more idiotic. Smoking to look cool or claiming ‘tradition.’ I for one smoke for exactly one reason: I like it. No psychobabble about being raised poorly, and no whining that I’m addicted. I just like it. I have, in fact, tried to quit 3 times, but my heart just wasn’t in it. Until my heart IS in it I won’t be quiting.

    In regards to -www.thetruth.com-, I can’t take them seriously. The reason is that their TV spots are full of… well, smoke. One simply gripes about how much money the tobacco industry makes. Another asks why so many food products are required to list ingredients when cigarettes are not. Now I’ve been conducting my own research for thirty-some-odd years and the results of that research along with data gathered from hundreds of hours of considering evidence indicates that cigarettes are not food. My source of data? Common sense. The people at thetruth.com seem to have forgotten that truth is subjective and it is FACT that is immutable. Plus using the word ‘truth’ in their name doesn’t mean that they will shy away from the use of misdirection. In fact, I wonder why they don’t adress underage drinking, hazing, and at least try to put together a group to study the real causes of school violence. You know, things that are more likely to have an immediate deadly effect.

    Just some thoughts…

    Salutations,

    Mitch

19. EClark1849 says:

    March 13, 2004 at 7:12 pm

    “As a result of what I have seen personally I often wonder if we should institute the “License to Parent” plan.”

    Oh, that would be wrong on SO many levels.Most notably what would you do if someone got pregnant without a license? Force them to have an abortion? Yeah, I think China does that if you have too many girls.

    Despite the many outcries of “bigotry” on the part of some whose name we won’t mention the main reason for marriage is to have a healthy happy atmosphere in which to raise a child that you and your spouse created together.

    “I think we should instead overhaul the healthcare system (I know, I know). If you smoke, or are obese and you have medical complications resulting from such, it shouldn’t be covered (essentially, why should you pay with your taxes and whatnot for my behaviors that are known to be destructive?).”

    My next question to you would be, “Why should my tax dollars go to pay YOUR medical bills anyway for whatever reason?

    I’m also against paying for abortiions (in this country or overseas), daycare, and sex-change operations for city workers in San Francisco with tax dollars. nd to be totally honest, I’m not even all that happy about tax credits for people who have children.

20. Mitch says:

    March 13, 2004 at 8:24 pm

    I wrote:
    “As a result of what I have seen personally I often wonder if we should institute the “License to Parent” plan.”

    EClark1894 replied:
    “Oh, that would be wrong on SO many levels.Most notably what would you do if someone got pregnant without a license? Force them to have an abortion? Yeah, I think China does that if you have too many girls.”

    As a matter of fact I agree with you completely. I was merely attempting to convey what I feel when I witness things like I decribed above. Also, just to make my position more clear, I strongly disagree with almost any infringement of personal freedom.

    Salutations,

    Mitch

21. Toby says:

    March 14, 2004 at 1:21 am

    “My next question to you would be, “Why should my tax dollars go to pay YOUR medical bills anyway for whatever reason?”

    Y’know, I have no real answer for that because I pretty much agree with that. I guess in some ways it’s looking out for each other in case something unexpected or an accident happens. I chip in some money, you chip in some money, if one of us gets hit by a semi in their living room, then that money gets used to help. Now, if one of us were lying on the highway at night wearing black and then gets hit by a semi, then that money shouldn’t get used to help. I’m still not sure I think anyone should have to pay for anyone else (and I guess having health coverage isn’t mandatory) other than some modern day larger attempt at a social support group (the village mentality if you will).

    Anyone else have any good thoughts on why I should pay for your medical bills or you should pay for mine (other than that I’m clearly such a loveable guy)? I’m a little bit at a loss right now, but then again, I’m still tired.

    Monkeys

22. vocalyz says:

    March 14, 2004 at 9:59 am

    The only reason I can come up with for helping pay each other’s bills is to have a national health plan that covers everyone. Our society’s prejudice and ignorance has resulted in many people who live in the most unhealthy of environments and can’t get the same opportunities, including health insurance and proper health care. Would you want to be a physician who works in a slum-like atmosphere? On the other hand, opportunities exist to get themselves out, yet they don’t take them (i.e., making sure their children are taught that doing well in school and obeying the law is THE ONLY WAY to get a better life). I’ve known plenty of people who got themselves out of the projects through hard work and dedication. Yet, there are plenty of people who can’t do so because of medical issues. I believe that health care MUST be an even playing field for all–even if we have to chip in to help each other.

    Also, I think we should cap medical lawsuits AND billing. We have laws against price gouging during emergencies, so why not health care? The same for education! Schools raise tuition and fees to cover the ever-rising salaries of faculty and staff. I truly believe that a Dean who is making over $200K is price gouging the school by 100% or more.

    The road to perfection is paved with working smart and making sacrifices. But some people can’t even get through the toll booth because they make minimum wage and don’t have the opportunity to learn the skills required for higher-paying jobs.

    This entry may not sound like it, but I am a moderate Democrat and not very Liberal.

    Daniel

23. EClark1849 says:

    March 14, 2004 at 3:38 pm

    “Anyone else have any good thoughts on why I should pay for your medical bills or you should pay for mine (other than that I’m clearly such a loveable guy)? I’m a little bit at a loss right now, but then again, I’m still tired.”

    Okay, folks the way this is supposed to work is that I’m the mean, nasty conservative who only wants to see people die so there’s more stuff for me and my cronie conservative pals.

    You are not supposed to be agreeing with me. Now be good little liberals and stop making sense!

    8^)